This is taken, for a first, from two sources, one is a conversation on the forum I frequented, where a participant, Rocky, made some extreme contentions that the ‘Soul’ or psyche, is superior to the body. The second is taken from a conversation with a friend, Finch, who has been speculating about consciousness. The focal point is to represent the fundamental Christian response to the argument of soul and consciousness, and that it is absurd to associate Greek thought onto what Paul is saying, even when he uses words that might imply Greek thought and philosophy, the reality is, in being a Jew writing to Romans and Jews, he would not have used the idea of Psyche being the locus of the human being, and as such likely uses the word Psyche, because the Greek language gives him no real other course of communication, as he is not talking about ZOE, which is physical and Spiritual life together, and he is not speaking of the BIOS, or bodily operations, nor is he talking about the mind, when he uses the word PSYCHE, but rather a lesser used, non philosophical method of the word, which denotes, animation or physical life. The piece does not go into the notion of how Christian society contributed to any real or semblic concept of the self, which is a modern developement which, in it’s emphasis on service and love towards ones neighbour, severely contributed to, but this is just a side notes. Once again this takes up an several simple claimes that the soul of Spiritual are superior, my main arguments are clearly that this is not so, and also proposing that they are simply other forms of material, as the body being other forms of spiritual, which would be in keeping with Judaic and therefore the real root of Christian thinking. It helps also that Roman Stoicism and Celtic thought seem to rally to it’s cause in the majority, while gnosticism and Greek thought are diametrically incompatible. There are some brief historical concepts iterated, a small section where I get rather frustrated talking about mushrooms [completely relevant btw], and some sections where it talks about the nature of sin, or it’s lack of nature and substance and consistency. There are a great number of more definitive clarifiable editions to be made. I will get around to them eventually, but here it is published.
Rocky, there is a flaw in your reasoning. It is too gnostic, and not at all Jewish. Paul’s background, and Jesus’ background for argument and contestation are Jewish, therefore even when dealing with Roman and Greek thinking, the likely outcome of the arguments Paul gives are going to be Jewish in their foundation- hence the duality between Flesh, Spirit and Soul, doesn’t actually exist, to be dualistic towards soul and body would have been repugnant and abominable to Paul, because it was to the Jews. If you have a soul, it is one with the body, so much so that it has no purpose and is completely negligable without one. Soul is not in the middle of the struggle, and body, or carnality is not the problem Paul talks about when it comes to the flesh.
Everything that we do and experience requires a body, from our hurts that must be addressed to our elations and our wills. Nothing we experience is linked to a negligable soul in the same way. You feel God because also you body does, your heart breaks because your body experiences emotions. People who lose their limbs have profound spiritual experiences with pain, as the limb that is there is not there, but is felt.
Please don’t go so far as to intepret poetry and symbolism for thinking that the body and it’s carnality are evil. The body longs to be healed, this is good, its desperation to be healed is also good, but can result in terrible things, just as love can make us kill. I would urge you greatly to begin to see that carnality is not waging against you but for you, as all creation cries out in giving birth, nor is it flimsy, as it is the thing which causes God to look down and bless us with children and crops, and can bring life and vibrance, and also which can cause cataclysm. Everything material bears Christ’s marks and is held together by him, this has caused many to say, he is in all things all things are an expression of himself to us, and that everything is a wonderful and beautiful shirt of mail dressing our lord with wonder.
As I have said before here, and I have been reading in order to give you and explanation, that sin is a place of not, or forgetfulness, of absence etc, and the flesh, being a spiritual entity just as much Spirit, as material and Spirit were made for eachother, making Spirit a kind of material, who in our case is a he and a Person, is full of sin, meaning sin is necessary to be recognised as residing in the body, but not of the body. The flesh is not made of sin, nor are it’s carnal desires and yearnings. In fact it’s desires and yearnings are most likely the very things most ravaged by the presence of the vacuous intruder of sin, which creates places in us where we do not exist, where God does not exist and where the memory of Jesus and correct behaviour is lost or put aside. Our bodies are good and our responses are good as well, in almost every case, they are good because in being hurt or incomplete, and being eaten from the inside out, we should be in pain, and should react not only from the pain but to do away with it, buy being not God many of our self medications eventually exaserbate the problem of the phage of sin. Alcohol numbs the pain until it contributes to it, sex distracts you with another person from actually mending wounds or learning to be healthily alone, or learning to love yourself. Sometimes these keep the pathogen successfully at bay, but never in remission, though it can be convincing that it is. So the porblem is not the sock, as to say the material of the sock were the problem would be nonsense, but where the sock breaks from the wear of a hole is the issue, the pain the sock is in is the issue, and in being living socks, we do not have the ability to fully darn ourselves, we have the means to get damn close with good and proper and necessary things, like needing other people and therapy, as a sock with a hole needs needles and thread, but we have forgotten how to darn, and a sock cannot darn itself, and we cannot recall what it is to be whole socks once we’ve had holes all our lives, or were in some way unable to be fully darned in the first place, or develope snags of hurt, as even being conceived in traumatic, if not birth itself, and all the time in between is a duress, even though it is well worth it.
Unfortunately there are those among us who like to tear at and unravel every sock that is in pain, in or out of the drawer, and to those they expect that those socks should comes unto once they have darned themselves together, and these socks it is, that bear stains that will never or by long shots remember what it was to be their original and pure colours.
This is an incredible distinction, as it has had intense implications on Christian’s view of man as forbade, primarily and fundamentally sinful and depraved, dead inside, unjustified unless accepting Christ, and misrepresenting many doctrines. It has lead us to think, unless someone believes on Christ, they are not justified, yet the whole human race is Justified regardless, for God Chose To Make US! and died for us while we were yet rebels, regardless of whether or not WE would recall our king as he did in fact die to get the attention of those deep parts that still existed in us and needed to remember him. We have actually been taught that Jesus has sin in his flesh which the Holy Spirit kept at bay, rather than realizing, that only God can make something from nothing, and if he is expressing himself and creating himself, then likely he is making from deep within him, and calling himself out from places in which he exists, redeeming by reminding, or taking from where he is still established in the deep powerful parts of a young girl’s womb. We apply this to Jesus conception, without actually using history to say, the in contestation of gnosticism, claiming Jesus was only Spiritual, that God and Jesus were one in material the real clinch is that Man and God are one, and that Spirit and material are compatible, for two corresponding beauties, that God is the standard for what makes us fundamentally and rightly human, and if so for this relationship, then perhaps it is to be said, that Spirit is the fundamental definition of matter, as God himself, holds all material and the universe together.
You wont find me using scripture, even though it is replete all through my post, ‘as creation is crying out as giving birth’ and ‘that God sustains and holds all things together’ it’s less important here than the culture context, soul and body are one, separation in any case is abominable.
If you think this silly, tell me at what point Paul says that his sin is his flesh? And tell me at what point the ability to be objective and observe and think through things became indicative of a soul? We experience emotions much more severely and readily through the flesh, than we do using our minds to step outside the situation, our mind responds then to the body, rationalising our emotions removedly, or entertwining with their justification, usually it is the emotional, ready and accessible foundation of human beings that is most prevalent all of which dominantly circulates through out bodies, in fact cerebracy in many cases creates computistic minds and shuts down the heart. Are you’re going to tell me that because Paul is able to use his mind, as a hard thinker and see the situation, that this is his ‘soul’ talking, or that our ability to think and exempt ourselves to further vantage points is a sign that the soul is removed from the forces of Spirit and flesh, because many people do not think hardly or heartily, in fact this is rare almost exclusively academic notion, whilst the experience of emotion, a soulful thing is processed real time in the body, not the mind. The notion of the soul being formatted like this is also gnostic borrowed thinking, integrated by Classical study by Augustine, Acquinas, to some extent Erasmus, the first two actually thinking that reason and cognition were not fallen, being the most ready signs of a soul and that a healthy one, mental faculty was the highest spiritual virtue and should suppress all the lower base bodily, sinful qualities of man
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Continuing in this avenue, that the soul and the body are one and inseparable are the ideas that God came to save our immortal souls, however, God came to save lives, and that wholistically, hence, resurrection. Have you ever noticed that unless someone is dead Christian focus is about refugee status, resurrection is not on the list, it’s all about ‘dying to join Jesus in the spaceship in the tail of the comet’. There is little contemporary talk about resurrection of the flesh, however it’s Jesus’ main schtick, not that we go to Heaven, but that the kingdom himself has come in him, to earth, and he so loved the world that he, came to save our souls? Or came to give us life, that who believes for him, shall not perish? Or do you think, that if a soul be the essence of what a person is, and then distill all flavour from it with out creating vanities? If you boiled a mushroom clean of flavour, you’d have a thin and tasty broth, but you would have a vain husk of the mushrooms body- but then you must ask why was such essence in the mushroom in the first place, perhaps it is more the body that has created the nature of any essence than any else, after all, together, they are both useful and usefully instinct, being wholly and distinctly unified as ‘mushroom’, which even unto any variation, of flavor to fungal flesh, must be referred to in reference to that material thing in order to even comprehend with marginal success, in any form of coherent commmunication what the fuck things are in the first place. The Body of all things is primus, you cannot say, cream of mushroom soup, and mean only the soul of mushroom, because all associations are projected out from the material, otherwise if soul exists it is collectively worthless in the notion of separation, because you cannot then describe or know it, as prime without the things it comes from, or is projected out from, namely corpus, concrete embodiment.
Continuing in this avenue, that the soul and the body are one and inseparable are the ideas that God came to save our immortal souls, however, God came to save lives, and that wholistically, hence, resurrection. Have you ever noticed that unless someone is dead Christian focus is about refugee status, resurrection is not on the list, it’s all about ‘dying to join Jesus in the spaceship in the tail of the comet’. There is little contemporary talk about resurrection of the flesh, however it’s Jesus’ main schtick, not that we go to Heaven, but that the kingdom himself has come in him, to earth, and he so loved the world that he, came to save our souls? Or came to give us life, that who believes for him, shall not perish?
Yet you yourself fall into this trap, as you say ”you’ the soul’. Yet it is to the body only we can speak of any experience. Most notably most Christian traditions regard soul, only as life force. If you wish to contest this idea and that the ‘soul’ is the ‘you’ we have a problem, because then we enter the Greeks, held by some Christians. idea that the soul is ‘the seat or locus of human will understanding and personality’, this is a huge problem, because as stated, not only is the soul none of these things, but, when we die, ‘the body to dust, and the soul unto God.’ Jesus Christ is the locus of human will, understanding and personality, any other assertion is apostasy, and if the soul then returns to God, we enter more gnosticism.
What has happened then is this, in my speculation: Paul, in talking about his flesh, does not use the word SOMA= body or whole person, he uses SARX= flesh, or more useful to his premise, corpse, the dead weight of sin, not his actual corporeals or his carnality. He then, if the accuracy serves uses the term PSYCHE= life, most often, the temporal life, which must dwell in a body, or it’s not life, which is then unpacked into English as ‘soul’, the problem is, Paul has very little other uses to convey his point, he could use BIOS, but he is not talking about the material of life, and BIOS is a less common usage, he is talking about the energy itself, and while his philosophy is not Greek, the word PSYCHE carried intense philosophical baggage. We then distill, would Paul being Christian, use PSYCHE to mean conscience, that sin vexes it, sure he could, but not being a gnostic where the summation of the human rests in the cognitive mind, why would he? He also doesn’t use the But he then uses something else, he goes on to say, the law vexed him, by multiplying his sins, and preparing him for death, in other words, it created a situation, justly where the sin multiplied and struggled against his very life, the temporal life of the `soul` which evaporates and goes back to God.
We can examine this in context. What makes more sense if Paul uses the idea of the deadweight of sin, waging war within his members, that this directly flayed his mind and this is the biggest problem of it, or this deadly absence was built up in him, and very literally threatened his ability not only to live but to be a living thing with a beating heart at all. What Paul then is speaking of is not the problem of the body and the release of the soul, but the atrophy and dead weight of sin, which consumed his good and was robbing him of life? Considering he is using the idea we have established, that there is something dead in us, and that the Law arouses it in order to propagate it, multiply it, make full its deadly purpose, this could very well mean that it would hurt the conscience, but Paul doesn’t use those words, neither NOU or NOUS for mind, nor, SUNEIDESIS for conscience. He could indeed have used the word, BIOS, but it’s unlikely why this word would be translated as ‘soul’, and confused with the intense philosophical problem it held in Greek thought we are discussing now. Second, examining context, Paul is writing to Jews in Rome, clearly by his reasoning, they have in the past, been good Lawful Jews, and are now arguing that the very thing they should carry on with is that Law they live so well, in fact something that very eventually does not vex their conscience at all, but made them proud and pompous, and made them resist God for their righteous accomplishment. Paul then rightly warns them, ‘Just as those married cannot be again married without death, the only way for this to set you free is to die, either through Jesus, or literal death, brought on by the daring goad of the Law. Live the law and it will literally kill you, as it was killing you before. Or come to Jesus, and thank God for him, which sets us free, and gives us life.’ Any such Dualism about ‘Body/soul separation’ or one favoured over the other is complete loss to the audience Paul is addressing.
So you see it is not the carnal material or it’s passions and desires, but the mysterious and deadly ‘nots’ of sin, not the body, or the SOMA, but the SARX, or corpse of sin, which eats away at the life force unto death. My attestation is, if soul is fundamental to corpus and body, then we may as well work with the primus, the body itself, as we know ourselves and everything in and out according to it, and recognitions of time, place, action and inaction, and why attest a soul at all, when in the end, the philosophy of soul is unhelpful to being human, and the energy of soul as animation is truly superfluos, why say I am driven by soul, rather than simply driven it is redundant. If there is some all encompassing fundamental summation of who and what I am deep down inside, it is Jesus Christ, and not any kind of definitive soul by any of the definitions most accepted, and that Jesus also belongs as the soul of all things, once again making it a moot point by accepted norms. And it’s in this that a great mystery lies, that if this idea of Jesus being present at the core at the root as the foundation author, finger print etc, holding all things together deep inside them, having released out a portion of love to be revered with stewardship, then everything but sin is alive and possesses astounding clarity and definition, all things no matter how concrete or still are until he say so, or sin over takes them, [though this is impossible, for a glass filled with shit, still must bear distinction, between shit and glass, though everything in it is useless, though perhaps the glass can be forever stained, there is still hope, as with every person] so immortally dynamic, and in some way, necessarily alive! Now aint that a frightening and terrible kingdom to unleash upon the earth, which fights to flourish against that which consumes, and says, limitless, when respected, rather than unsustainable when reaped? And has at that life until it cannot be contained!
Finch, the actual Christian reality has very little to do with Going to heaven. Once you get past being taught like a dismal layman by pastors and priests and get through mediocre bible colleges [like the one I went to], and get into the actual scholarship, the grass roots ancient world Judaic foundations, you see, that much of Greek thought on the soul and material is not even remotely compatible. Primarily because Judeo-Christian foundations present the Spiritual as a material, primarily designed to interract or depend on the physical, and vice versa for the physical.
They believed that the soul was so dependent on the body and the body equally so, that to separate them was an abomination, which resulted in death, or mutilation/disfigurement- as in the purely animative energy of the soul, which is not at all consciousness but infact just an internal combustion engine, to coin a phrase, burns out.
Their primary focus is not even to go to heaven, as the Jews have no real concept of heaven as a place for humans, and no concept of hell what so ever, they have the idea of hell on earth in the Gehenna valley, which is what Jesus talks about when he mentions, ‘wailing and gnashing of teeth.’ And an idea of ‘the grave’ expressed by ‘Sheol’, but this is as far as it goes, and Sheol is by nature not an eternal place. When you examine the background of Jesus and Paul, and look into the Greek, you begin to see that not only is there almost zero Greek thought in any of their communication, there is also no supportable argument for the idea of an immortal eternal soul. The core of Christian thinking on this matter doesn’t even factor heaven as some place that we go, but based on biblical precedence, as something or someone who comes here, as illustrated by the Incarnation, and the promise, that Christ will come again.
The fundamental precept is resurrection from the dead as the people who have received life, not a life lived in a distant heaven as a disembodied eternal soul. The entire concept is based on the fact, that the human being is to co-exist and commune peacefully, in a supernatural state, with God and people and all creation, without this foundation, there is nothing eternal about anyone. How that community is established and lived, that is between everyone and their own personal lives responding to their environment and others. The concept of Eternal wrath in hell is actually not fundamentally Christian either, Irenaeus, a gaulish Christian Scholar, and Church Father who combated gnosticism was actually a universalist, and Justin Martyr, also a Church Father suggested that God’s judgement was more attune to punishment regarding annihilation. Now when people start thinking about judgement from a loving God, they skip over alot of truths, like where do we get this idea of God having to be compassionate- Most wide sweepingly, from Christian ideas, because no other God actually has debt free compassion inside their qualities. Two, they skip over the idea that perhaps God is just in punishing people for what they have done to the innocent, overlooked and wronged, who shall account for them, at the expense of God looking pretty and being the God who will overlook our abuses upon others?
Now, back onto the topic of this Supernatural Life, it may not be dependent on word of mouth allegiance and choosing a camp as modern evangelism would have us think, because that idea is not Christian either, but Enlightenment thinking, telling us everything has to be categorical, fit in its place, belong somewhere etc. In fact much of what we call ‘witch burnings’ come from enlightenment thinking, that hermits and naturalists who lived in remote places, who gave people natural remedies to cure ailments, after those people has received prayer for healing and not been healed, by being outside the classable world, had to be evil, if the Church was good. The real stipulation in Judaism is how you live, which is their classification of wisdom, which attests wise people in every culture, including passages taken from other lands than Israel in Proverbs. Wisdom is whether you live honestly, how you treat your neighbour, how you are responsible, and in the end, you motive for it, which only God can see.
Now, the Celts when they became Christians expanded on things, they denounce exnihilo, that God created the universe from nothing, and stipulate that his desire and love were so deep to make and share grandeur, that he exuded himself as the material which made the cosmos, and yet retained himself, and offered a slightly removed and distinct capability to all things to be an expression of himself, and a tree or rock or etc in and of itself, including himself following his making. In this, all creatures have received a portion of his breath, can reflect him, do express him, as any artist gives themselves to their work, but humanity is the only one of these expressions he has kissed, or perhaps to take it further, has kissed, with tongue.
In this sense, humanity is the most realised, in all senses, emotions, communication, ability of action, and consciousness. But it’s very difficult to determine consciousness, reason, etc, because they are there, but by example creating this place as the locus of human is dangerous, precisely because we are holistic by nature, and since I am representing the Christian view here, they rejected gnosticism with good reason, because of what it said about our bodies and about the created world, and they centered the locus of human existence in mind. But traditional Greek thought centers it in the heart, Judeo thought in the bowels. Celtic thought in the actual head. There are huge amounts of problems with this, because the mind, which is said to be good in this mode of thinking, but the body, evil, is mutually exclusive to the point where nothing is sensible about it, without a body, there is no definition to the human, and without that consciousness is impossible, because it literally has no frame of reference, for environment, existence, relevent association to anything,without the counter agent of the body, we cannot even presupposed soul or consciousness to be even it’s cliche of ‘a disembodied globe of light or energy’ etc.
Continuing to examine Greek thought, are we prepared to follow through on their thinking, when they weren’t even smart enough to respond to change reasonably? They concluded that because there was no material permanence, that clearly it fell apart and so was corrupt and should be undesirable to that which is constant [this even conjured their gods as imovable immutable entities perfect and devoid of emotion and sympathy], they concluded that change then has no universal form and is evil, avoid change, leave the material world, and join the whole and pleasant spiritual one, and all you have to do is exercise your mind, and become austere, impervious to your bodily needs and to the environment around, exceptionally different to stoicism, Celtic thinking, and Judaism, which were the prominent cultures surrounding the Greeks. Their reason was so short sighted that they couldn’t even speculate at the idea that perhaps in being so universal, that change maybe the ruling form, not something evil, but the nature of things. Which leads to the final conclusion that even unrelational gnosticism is more relational and less rational than it would want to believe, because while it is understandable, it’s whole philosophy is based entirely on the fact ‘I don’t want to change I don’t want to die, I want to live eternally in bliss, impervious, and how I’ll do it will be to ignore or kill the needs of my body, and ignore every climate which surrounds me, other people, politics, the environment and all it’s ecosystems, because my total objective is to preserve, not just any old good thing, but myself, primarily myself.’ And why shouldn’t they be afraid, because they discovered the reality, that people, on their own are not eternal, so they convinced themselves they could be. Which sounds very much like mainstream Christianity to me these days. Which is in direct contrast to the idea of obedience unto death and that preservation is achieved through my self sacrifice, and a gamble with eternity, that maybe I will forever be extinguished, that Jesus’ life death presents, which dares us to do the same. Now, the fact remains, that in constructing gnosticism, the same might be said of God, I fully accede that possibility, however, in gnosticism is found the fundamental reality, ‘become immortal, by how you stop living, and avoid the material death’. Whilst in Christ it seen, don’t worry about immortality, live for others, and embrace how you die, live to the hilts and seek out a worthy death, in service to the few and the many. The rest is up to the long dark sleep to determine.